HMCo #150p Say When

"[1889-01-06] Sun 6: Charles Newman died this morn. from injury in Say When [#150p Say When accident had been on December 8, 1888].
[1889-04-02] Tue 2: ... Put[?] Say When [#150p] from[?] winter quarters.
[1889-04-23] Tue 23: Say When [#150p] started for N.Y. ...
[1889-06-10] Mon 10: Trial in case of setting safety valve in Say When.
[1890-03-03] Mon 3: Trial of Say When case at courthouse.
[1890-03-05] Wed 5: Verdict rendered of $4,000 in [#150p] Say When case." (Source: Herreshoff, Nathanael G. Diary, 1889 to 1890. Manuscript (excerpts). Herreshoff Marine Museum Collection.)

"But perhaps Captain Nat was going a little too fast at this time, for he was to receive somewhat of a setback on his next fast yacht. While some people may criticize me for bringing up this incident, I feel that it had some effect on his career and may have turned him partly toward the sailboat again. This happened with the steamer 'Say When' also built for Mr. Munro. 'Say When' was very much the same model under water as 'Now Then,' but her stern above water was carried out in an overhang, somewhat like other yachts of the time. She was one hundred and thirty-eight feet long, planked of mahogany, and had an engine like the ones in 'Cushing.' These engines had a stroke of fifteen inches and bores of eleven inches, sixteen inches, twenty-two and one half inches, twenty-two and one half inches, twenty-two and one half inches and developed in the neighborhood of eight hundred and seventy-five horsepower. On her trial trips 'Say When' rather disappointed her designer and because the safety valve blew just before she got up to the speed anticipated, Captain Nat himself screwed down the safety valve adjustment. I suppose he did not increase the boiler pressure materially, but in running a trial it is most annoying to have the safety valve pop and at times lower the whole boiler pressure five pounds or so before the valve closes again. At any rate it was Captain Nat's hard luck that in getting up steam before the next trial run a boiler tube burst when the fire door was open, and the steam and fire that was thrown into the boiler room fatally asphyxiated a fireman. At the inquest of the accident the steamboat inspectors not only severely reprimanded Captain Nat but also, I believe, took away his steam engine license forever.
In an attempt to justify Captain Nat, I will say the boiler tubes of that day varied in strength considerably, particularly at different temperatures and this particular boiler, which was of the Thornycroft type, had some tubes above the water level. Also if the fire door had not happened to be open for the fireman to stoke the fire probably no harm would have been done. Also I have heard, and this happened before I was born, that the boiler was only getting up steam and did not have a high pressure when the tube let go, so Captain Nat had bad luck. For those not familiar with water tube boilers I will say that generally a tube that gives out opens only with a small crack and allows a small escape of steam, in fact so small that you would not know anything had happened excepting for the loss of steam pressure and, at times, the use of more water than comes from the condenser. Almost always you can complete the day's run without difficulty, so the severity of this accident with a water tube boiler was hard luck.
I do not know the speed of 'Say When,' but believe it was about twenty-five miles per hour." (Source: Herreshoff, L. Francis. The Wizard of Bristol. The Life and Achievements of Nathanael Greene Herreshoff, together with An Account of Some of the Yachts he Designed. New York, 1953, p. 108-109.)

"NOW THEN and SAY WHEN
by Halsey C. Herreshoff
One hundred years ago the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company produced the most advanced power yachts of the time. Captain Nat Herreshoff designed every detail of the light weight steam machinery and of the steel or composite hull structure. The high sustained speed of these craft was unmatched in the United States.
... For 1888, Norman Munro got Captain Nat to enlarge the underwater form of NOW THEN to produce the 138' yacht SAY WHEN. The reverse transom was eliminated in favor of a substantial overhanging transom.
Again, the CUSHING model 5-cylinder engine was used, but interestingly in this longer yacht little more speed was attained than in NOW THEN. A sad incident occured aboard SAY WHEN that altered Captain Nat Herreshoffs career, likely driving him to greater activity in sailing yacht design. While getting up steam before a trial trip, SAY WHEN suffered a ruptured boiler tube. The fire door was open at the time, and the fireman stoking the boiler was fatally asphyxiated by the steam and fire suddenly thrown into the boiler room. At the inquest, Captain Nat was held responsible principally because it is alleged that he had cranked down on the boiler's safety valve the previous day. Captain Nat lost his steam engineer's license for life and had to run boilers and engines along with another licensed engineer from then on.
For all this misfortune, SAY WHEN was a most successful steam yacht, giving her owner much pleasure. Except for train travel, there was no mode of transportation 100 years ago faster than a high powered steam yacht. Quiet, with minimal vibration, boats such as NOW THEN and SAY WHEN were altogether some of the finest conveyances of all times." (Source: Herreshoff Marine Museum Chronicle, Spring 1987, p. 3.)

"Mr. N. L. Munro has sold the Now Then [#142p] and it is reported that he has ordered from the Herreshoff Co. a seagoing steam yacht [#150p Say When] of 135ft. over all to be built of mahogany on the firm's double skin system. The yacht will be designed for great speed. Mr. Munro will also have a smaller boat [#148p Our Mary and/or #149p Jersey Lily] from the same yard. ..." (Source: Anon. "New Steam Yachts." Forest and Stream, October 27, 1887, p. 276.)

"A new steam yacht, built by the Messrs Herreshoffs, was launched from the boat works about 6 30 o'clock on Tuesday [April 24, 1888] evening. The yacht was built for Mr. Norman L. Munro, of New York, and is 138 feet over all in length and 13 feet beam. This is one of the finest yachts ever built in this or any other country. She is planked up from the water line in mahogany and is of the best possible workmanship. Hundreds of our citizens witnessed the launching and cheered lustily when she glided down the ways into the water. Just as she started Mr. Munro little daughter dashed a bottle of wine against her bow and christened the beautiful craft 'Say When.' Mr. Munro is also the owner of 'Now Then.' The 'Say When' is expected to do some very fast sailing --- and she is pretty as a picture." (Source: Anon. "Local Affairs." Bristol Phoenix, April 28, 1888, p. 2.)

"Washington, D. C., May 17, 1888.
[Description of the tests of the boiler for #149p Jersey Lily a larger version of which was to be used for #150p Say When.] In the larger boiler, arranged for higher power, while the principle is the same in every respect, there are some differences in the details of construction. The steam-drum is placed within the rectangular casing and the separator at the back of the boiler, so as to leave the front of the casing free for removal. There are four horizontal elements in the feed-water heater, instead of three; and seven tubes in each vertical element, instead of five. All tubes are 2 inches in internal diameter, and are joined to U's and elbows by right and left hand threads. The vertical elements connect directly (without the interposition of Y's) to short tubes in the steam and mud drums, being secured to them by heavy union-couplings, the nuts of which are fitted with lugs on top for spanners. The joint is made with asbestos washers. The holes in the drums are zigzagged. The casing is a single shell, with inside T-irons securing a lining, 2 1/2 inches thick, of 'Magnesia' bricks.
A boiler of this kind, designed to develop from seven to eight hundred horse-power, is being put in the yacht Say When, launched by the Herreshoff Company on April 24 [1888]. Its grate-surface is 58 square feet, and the casing rectangular, about 8 1/2 by 8 1/2 by 8 1/2 feet high. The construction in all details seems to be substantial. Owing to the large number of joints in contact with the fire, the liability to leakage is increased, but, on account of the facility with which any one element can be removed, the force of any objection on this score is reduced to a minimum. In case one or several of the elements are removed, the holes can be closed by caps and the rest of the boiler continued in use.
The computed weight of this boiler, with its attachments, is between 11 and 12 tons net. The space required in front for removal of the elements would be only 7 feet, or less than the usual width of fire-rooms.
We are of the opinion that this type of boiler is well adapted for large powers, and see no reason why any number of boilers, each complete in itself as described, with regulating check-valves for the control of the feed-water supply, should not be successfully arranged in batteries and in separate compartments. It is not yet certain whether it will operate satisfactorily with a powerful forced draft and highest rate of combustion, but its performance in the Jersey Lily, when in free route, indicated that even a higher rate of combustion than was secured would not have caused prejudicial results. When the Say When is completed, there will be an excellent opportunity to further test this question, as a powerful blower is supplied to force the combustion to the high rate that is expected, and which, in fact, will be necessary to produce the horse-power anticipated.
The class of skilled labor required for the proper care of the boiler when in use, and for repair and renewal of parts when found defective, can be generally found, in our opinion, on board our naval steamers, the character of the work being mainly pipe-fitting. ... " (Source: Greene, A. S. (Chief Engineer U.S. Navy). "Report of a Board of Naval Engineers on the Tests of a Herreshoff Boiler, New Type, Fitted on the Launch 'Jersey Lily', and of a Herreshoff Boiler, Old Type, Fitted on the Launch 'Our Mary', At Bristol, R. I., April 19, 20, And 24, 1888." In: Annual Report of the Secretary of the Navy for the Year 1888. Washington, 1888, p. 363-369.)

"AT THE HERRESHOFFS'. Nearly Thirty Miles an Hour Expected from Mr. Munro's Latest. Bristol, R. I., May 31 [1888]. ... For high rate of speed the Say When, which is now afloat at the Herreshoffs' docks, is expected to eclipse any yacht ever set afloat. She was launched April 27 [1888], and by the middle of July her owner, Norman L. Munro of New York, will have her in perfect condition. It is said that she will astonish the yachting world by making from 27 to 20 miles per hour. Her length, is 138 feet, 14 foot beam, built entirely of mahogany, with flush decks. She has a quadruple engine, pipe boiler, and will have 900 horse power and from 420 to 430 revolutions a minute. She will have an aluminum brass propeller and the finish will be of brass. It is expected she will make the distance from Newport to New York in about 6 1/4 hours. ..." (Source: Anon. "At the Herreshoffs." Boston Globe, June 1, 1888, p. 4.)

"Say When, steam yacht, of Bristol.
Built at Bristol, RI, by Herreshoff Manufacturing Co., 1888.
43.57 tons; 122.4 ft. x 14.1 ft. x 9.4 ft. [Register length x breadth x depth.]
One deck, two masts, plain head, round stern.
Surveyed and measured, [no date (1888)]." (Source: U.S. Customs Department, Bristol, R.I. Custom House Record Book, 1870s to 1904 (Collection of the Herreshoff Marine Museum), s.v. Say When.)

"[Abstract of register or enrollment. Pos. 859:]
Say When, steam yacht, of Bristol.
Built at Bristol, 1888.
43.57 tons; 122.4 ft. x 14.1 ft. x 9.4 ft. [Register length x breadth x depth.]
No specifications shown.
Enr[olled] and Lic[ensed] ([as] yacht) July 20, 1888. Owner: Herreshoff Manufacturing Company of Bristol. Master: [blank].
Surrendered [license] Apr. 18, 1889 at New York. ([Record at:] C[ustom] H[ouse, Providence])." (Source: Survey of Federal Archives, Work Projects Administration. Ships Documents of Rhode Island. Bristol. Ship Registers and Enrollments of the Port of Bristol - Warren Rhode Island, 1941, s.v. Say When.)

"The new and beautiful steam yacht 'Say When' recently completed by the Herreshoff Manufacturing Co, for Mr Norman L. Munro, of New York, sailed from here for that city on Friday [July 20, 1888] afternoon of last week. Mr. Munro and family were on board." (Source: Anon. "Local Affairs." Bristol Phoenix, July 28, 1888, p. 2.)

"On April 24 [1888] at the Herreshoff Manufacturing Co.'s yard, Bristol, R. I., Mr. N. L. Munro's new yacht was launched, being christened 'Say When.' She is 138ft. over all, 115ft. l.w.L, 14ft. beam and 4 1/2ft. draft. The hull is double skinned, the outer skin of mahogany. The engines are quadruple expansion, of great power, and a speed of 25 knots is guaranteed. The yacht is schooner rigged. The same firm are at work on two 65ft. launches [#148p Our Mary and #149p Jersey Lily], also for Mr. Munro." (Source: Anon. "New Herreshoff Yachts." Forest and Stream, October 11, 1888, p. 235.)

"Mr. N. L. Munro has sold the Say When, the price being $46,000." (Source: Anon. "Say When." Forest and Stream, October 25, 1888, p. 277.)

"Providence, R. I., Dec. 8 [1888]. --- The Herreshoff yacht Say When burst a pipe in her boiler off Bristol Ferry at 10 o'clock this morning. Charles Newman and Charles Horton were badly scalded. Newman was taken to the Rhode Island Hospital. The amount of damage done to the yacht is not yet known. [Charles Newman died January 6, 1889.]" (Source: Anon. "Accident to the Say When." New York Times, December 9, 1888, p. 13.)

"... Steam Yacht (211). An explosion took place on the fast Herreshoff yacht, Say When, off Hope Island, Narragansett Bay, on Dec. 8th, while she was making her trial trip. Charles F. Newman, fireman, was fatally injured, and George C. Horton, engineer, was fearfully scalded about the face and arms. The Say When, disabled, was picked up by a tugboat and taken to Bristol. The boiler was of the well-known Herreshoff safety coil type." (Source: Anon. [Title?] Locomotive 1888, vol. 9-10, [p. 5?].)

"Saturday morning [December 8, 1888] the steam yacht 'Say When' started out for a trial trip and about 10 o'clock when off Bristol Ferry and ready to enter on her course, a pipe in her coil boiler exploded and the force of the escaping steam blew out the fire, ashes, coal etc. into the boiler room badly burning and scalding the two firemen, Charles Newman and George Horton. Mr. Newman was so seriously injured that he was immediately conveyed to the Rhode Island Hospital at Providence, his hands and face were terribly injured. Mr. Norton was taken to his home in this town and immediately received medical aid. Both the young men are married. Mr. N. G. Herreshoff who was on board the yacht at the time of the accident was landed at once and telephoned to Fall River for the tugboat T. M. Brown to steam to the Ferry to render assistance. Drs. Hall and Neylan went down and attended the injured men. The steam tug was soon at the scene. The Say When was towed to the Herreshoff Manufacturing Co.'s wharf. We learn that both the sufferers are doing as well as could be expected under the trying circumstances." (Source: Anon. "Sad Accident." Bristol Phoenix, December 15, 1888, p. 2.)

"Mr. Charles Howland Newman, son of Mr. John S. Newman of this town, who was so seriously injured by the explosion of the boiler on board the steam yacht 'Say When' on the 8th ultimo [December 8, 1888], died at the Rhode Island Hospital in Providence last Sunday morning. Mr. Newman was burned and scalded from head to foot at the time of the explosion. He leaves a wife but no children. His remains were brought here Monday and the funeral was solemnized from his father's residence Wednesday. The fire department, of which the deceased was formerly a member, attended in a body, and a delegation was present at the funeral from DeWolf Camp No 8, Sons of Veterans." (Source: Anon. "Local Affairs." Bristol Phoenix, January 12, 1889, p. 2.)

"The Court of Common Pleas for Bristol County, May term, commenced its session in this town Monday morning [May 6, 1889], Judge Tillinghast presiding. The Court was opened at 9 o'clock. The Grand Jury was called and empanelled, and Mr. William F. Paull, of this town, was appointed foreman. No indictments were found. The Petit Jury was called and Mr. Earl C. Potter, of Barrington, was appointed foreman. ... The cases on the rule docket were continued. The civil docket was called. ... Andrew S. Rounds, Administrator of the estate of Charles H. Newman, vs. Herreshoff Manufacturing Company. Charged in the writ for injuries caused by the neglect, carelessness and wrongful acts of said defendant corporation, whereby said Newman lost his life. Defendant submits to judgment for $20,000, and takes an appeal to the September term of the Supreme Court.
At 10 30 a. m the Court was adjourned to meet Wednesday morning at 10 30 o'clock, when the civil docket will be in order, and the petit jury were excused until that time." (Source: Anon. "Local Affairs." Bristol Phoenix, May 11, 1889, p. 2.)

"[Say When (Steamyacht) owned by Norman L. Munro, Port: New York; LOA 138ft; LWL 115ft; Beam 14ft; Draft 4.6ft; designed by Herreshoff Mfg. Co. and built by Herreshoff Mfg. Co. in 1888.]" (Source: Stebbins 1888 Yachtsmen's Souvenir, p. 1.)

"The fast Herreshoff steam yacht Say When, owned by Mr. James T. Blandford, of Sing Sing, N. Y has been sold to Mr. J. P. Thomas, of Peabody, Mass., through McGrady's Yacht Agency of Boston." (Source: Anon. "Yachting Notes." New York Herald, November 26, 1889, p. 8.)

"A Jury in Providence, R. I., has beaten the record. It awarded damages of $40,000 [sic, i.e. $4,000] to the heirs of Charles Newman, who was killed by an explosion on board Herreshoff's steamer, 'Say When,' in 1888, while but 20,000 was asked for." (Source: Anon. "Abbreviated Telegrams." The Rock Island Argus, Volume 38, Number 117, March 7, 1890, p. 2.)

"Supreme Court. --- The March Term of the Supreme Court, within and for the county of Bristol, commenced its session in this town Monday morning, before Justices Matteson and Stiness. The Court was opened in due form at 9.20.
The Grand Jury was called and Mr. Sanford B. Munro, of Bristol, was appointed foreman. After a brief charge from the Court the Jurors retired to their room for consultation, accompanied by Assistant Attorney General Aldrich. No indictments were found at this term.
The civil docket was called and several cases were disposed of by continuance and otherwise.
The Petit Jury was called, and Mr. Ambrose B. Mason, of Warren, was appointed foreman. The first case for the jury was Andrew S. Bounds, Administrator of estate of Charles H. Newman, vs. Herreshoff Manufacturing Co. Damages laid at $20,000. ...
Pending the trial of the case brought against the Herreshoff Manufacturing Co., Court adjourned to Tuesday morning at 9 o'clock.
Second day --- Tuesday, March 4 th --- Justice Stiness presiding. Court opened at 9 o'clock A.M. The case, Andrew S. Bounds, Administrator, vs.. Herreshoff Manufacturing Co., was resumed, the evidence was taken, and arguments of counsel heard. The Court adjourned to Wednesday morning, at 9 o'clook.
Third day --- Wednesday, March 6th --- Justice Stiness presiding. Court came in at the hour appointed. In the case, Andrew S. Bounds, Administrator, vs. Herreshoff Manufacturing Co., Judge Stiness charged the jury and the jurors retired to their room for consultation.
The jury returned into Court at 11.45, with a verdict for plaintiff for $4,000." (Source: Anon. "Local Affairs." Bristol Phoenix, March 8, 1890, p. 2.)

"In the Supreme Court at Bristol, R. I., the administrator of Charles Newman, who was killed on the 'Say When,' Dec. 8, 1888, by the explosion of that steamer's boiler on her initial trip, has secured a verdict for $4,000 in a suit for $20,000 damages against the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company of Bristol." (Source: Anon. "News of the Week." St. Lawrence Plain Dealer, March 12, 1890, p. 8.)

"Supreme Court. --- The September Term of the Supreme Court commenced its session in this town Monday morning [September 1, 1890], before Chief Justice Durfee and Associate Justices Matteson and Stiness. The Grand Jury was impaneled with Samuel L. Peck, of Warren as Foreman. ... Petition for new trial --- Andrew S. Rounds, Administrator, vs. Herreshoff Mnfg. Co. At the last March term the plaintiff received a verdict for $4000; the defendants now petition for new trial. ..." (Source: Anon. "Local Affairs." Bristol Phoenix, September 6, 1890, p. 2.)

"The success of the Henrietta [#133p] led to the placing of an order with the Herreshoffs for a larger craft, and in 1887 the Now Then [#142p] was launched at Bristol. She was of the regular wooden construction of the firm, 86 feet 4 inches over all, 81 feet 9 inches lwl, 10 feet beam, 5 feet 7 inches depth of hold, and 3 feet 2 inches draft, with triple-expansion engines 7 1/2, 12, and 19 inches by 10 1/2 inches, and a coil boiler 6 feet 3 inches by 5 feet 3 inches. Though a fast boat, the Now Then by no means came up to the standard of the Stiletto [#118p] and Henrietta, and failed to meet the expectations of her owner. The following year she was returned to her builders in partial payment for a new and still larger yacht, from which a much higher speed was expected. The Say When [#150p], as she was named by Mr. Munro, was 138 feet overall, 115 feet lwl, 14 feet beam, and 4 feet 6 inches draft, --- an elaborately-built craft, with mahogany planking and a complete outfit of the most improved Herreshoff machinery. The Now Then was of the decked launch type, with the stern cut away on deck and broadening out just at the surface of the water, but the Say When was of the conventional steam-yacht type, with longer clipper stem and the usual yacht counter. Though a serviceable boat, she too failed to realize the speed expected of her." (Source: Stephens, W. P. "The High Speed Steam-Yacht as a Factor in Torpedo Boat Design." Van Nostrand's Engineering Magazine. August 1898, p. 786.)

"July 20 [1907]. --- About 2.30 p. m., steam yacht Say When struck on Sturgeon Shoal, River St. Lawrence, and filled. Subsequently floated and taken to dry dock at Kingston, Canada. Damage estimated at $250." (Source: United States. Dept. of Commerce and Labor [publ.]. [Title?] Reports of the Department of Commerce and Labor, 1909, [p. 554?].)

"Cornwall, July 21 [1907]. --— (Special.) —-- During the storm yesterday afternoon the big steam yacht Say When of Cleveland. Ohio, owned by J. A. Jacobs of Montreal (of Cobalt fame), went on the Sturgeon shoal, opposite Aultsville. It is understood here that the Donnelly Wrecking Company of Kingston have been asked to pull the yacht off. It is reported that the Say When is on her beam ends, but the crew of ten men and the captain and Mr. and Mrs. Jacobs and party of friends, some 12 or 13 in all, were taken off by a tug." (Source: Anon. "Cleveland Yacht, Say When, Wrecked. Boat in Bad Shape, but the Crew and Passengers Are Safe—Record of Vessel." The Globe and Main, July 22, 1907, p. 3.)

"No. 25445 --- For Sale --- High-speed, cruising steam yacht, Herreshoff build and design; 140 ft. o. a.; quadruple-expansion engine, Roberts' water-tube boiler; complete electrical equipment. Speed 20 to 25 miles per hour. Has mahogany planking, which gives the boat a very attractive appearance. Mahogany deckhouses and interior. Fully equipped and handsomely furnished. Two deckhouses. Galley, officers' and crew's quarters forward. Owner's accommodation aft, consisting of double stateroom, single stateroom, bathroom and a large saloon with transom berths. First-class condition throughout. Price less than 75 per cent of cost. For plans and further details, communicate with William Gardner, 1 Broadway, New York. [Though not explicitly identified, her dimensions, quadruple engine and appearance in the accompanying photo clearly identify her as Say When.]" (Source: Rudder, March 1908, p. 263.)

"FOR SALE: --- No. 380. A fast steam yacht; 138 feet overall; 116 feet waterline; 14.1 feet beam and 6 feet draught. Located on the St. Lawrence. Built by Herreshoff; oak and iron frames; mahogany planking. Speed 18 knots. Saloon 18 feet long; three staterooms, bathroom, etc. Has 5-cylinder triple expansion Herreshoff engine, of 750 to 800 horsepower; thoroughly overhauled 1905. Roberts' water tube boiler new 1901, in good condition. Electric light; steam heat; light coal consumption. Complete equipment. Everything in first class condition. Carries gasoline launch, gig and dinghy. Sacrifice: make offer. HENRY J. GIELOW, 50 Broadway. [Though not explicitly identified, her dimensions and appearance in the accompanying photo clearly identify her as Say When.]" (Source: Anon. "For Sale." Yachting, May 1908, p. 250.)

"No. 389 --- For Sale or Charter --- Fast Herreshoff, mahogany planked, flush-deck steam yacht, 138x116x14.1x6 ft. 6 in. draught. Quadruple-expansion engine and water-tube boiler. Three staterooms, bath, large main saloon, social hall, and pilothouse. Interior handsomely finished in mahogany. Sleeps good-sized party. Galley, officers' staterooms and crew's forecastle are forward. Anchors, chains, awnings, small boat and interior equip ment. Considerable new 1909. Yacht is now located on St. Lawrence River and has cruised extensively on the Atlantic coast. Owned by estate and will be sold at low figure. Gielow & Orr, 52 Broadway, New York City. [#150p Say When can be clearly identified from the accompanying photo and is the only Herreshoff-built yacht to fit the description and dimensions.]" (Source: Anon. "For Sale." Rudder, March 1910, p. 284.)

"... Frederick K Burnham's steam yacht Say When sank at her dock at Alexandria Bay, N Y. the night of Dec 28 [1910]. The accident is believed to have been due to the bursting of a water pipe. In her day the Say When was the fastest steam yacht on the Atlantic coast. She was built by Herreshoff in 1888 and is 138 feet over all, 14 feet 2 inches beam and six feet draft. It is expected that the yacht will be raised. ..." (Source: Anon. "Notes from the Week's Log." Boston Globe, January 1, 1911, p. 51.)

"Say When, an exceptionally sleek and well-appointed Steam Yacht, was yet another early success of the boatbuilders of Bristol. She was noted for her unusual engine --- a 5-cylinder triple expansion by Herreshoff. She was designed by Mr. Nathaniel G. (Capt. Nat) Herreshoff and built by the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company at Bristol, Rhode Island in 1888. Construction was of wood. Her specifications were as follow: Gross Tons, 87; Net Tons, 43; Overall Length, 138'; Waterline Length, 116'; Beam, 14' 2"; Depth, 9' 5"; Draft, 6'. Her engine was 14 1/2", 17 1/2", 23 1/2", 23 1/2"and 23 1/2"of bore and 15 1/2" of stroke. A new Roberts water tube boiler replaced the original Herreshoff boiler in 1891. She was designed, undoubtedly, with an eye toward making her speedy. In 1905, 1906, and 1907, she was listed in the name of the Hon. W. J. White of Cleveland, Ohio. Her registration Number was 116209." (Source: Mercier, Gilbart B. Pleasure Yachts of the Thousand Islands. Clayton, New York, 1981, frontispice.)

"SAY WHEN Steam Yacht, official U. S. Number 116209, of 87 Gross Tons, and built 1888. On Dec, 21, 1917, Yacht burned in Alexandria Bay, St. Lawrence River, a total loss. Loss of American Vessels Reported During 1918, M.V. list of U. S. 1918. " (Source: Maritime History of the Great Lakes, http://images.maritimehistoryofthegreatlakes.ca/44517/data, retrieved April 12, 2014.)

"I have run down the annual report of the Supervising Inspector General of Steamboats to the Secretary of Treasury for the fiscal year ending June 30,1889 (Say When accident was Dec. 8, 1888). The report includes 'a list in detail of the fatal accidents which occurred in each supervising district during the fiscal year ending June 30 1889'. The Say When accident is not listed.
In Wizard of Bristol LFH writes 'At the inquest of the accident the steamboat inspectors not only severely reprimanded Captain Nat but also, I believe, took away his steam engine license' (p. 108), in fact he doesn't really _know_ what the penalty.
The penalty for obstructing the operation of a safety valve is quite severe. The laws governing steamboat inspection service at that time provided --- section 4436-4437 --- anyone who obstructs use of the safety valve 'shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be fined $200 and may also be imprisoned not exceeding five years'. And on top of that there was a death. (The accident assumption being that NGH isolated the safety valve, after which at some time the boiler was over pressurized and upon light-off the next morning a tube failed as a result of that over pressurization.)
I have found no news reports concerning steamboat inspector investigation or about Nat's loss of license. All the news reports after the accident are about a civil suit against the company (HMCo) for the death. Plaintiffs asked for $20K, but the court awarded $40K to be later reduced by the RI Supreme Court to only $4K." (Source: Palmieri, John, Curator Emeritus of the Herreshoff Marine Museum. Private Email to Sandy Lee, November 3, 2021.)

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"[Item Description:] Untitled penciled calculations, apparently about steam machinery, mentioning among others 'H[igh] P[ressure] 8in valve' and 'L[ow] P[ressure] 11 1/4in V[alve]. Filed in folder for item no. HH.6.3 which refers to #150p SAY WHEN, #151p BALLYMENA, and #152p CUSHING. Undated, but other material in this folder dates from January 1, 1888." (Source: MIT Museum, Hart Nautical Collections, Haffenreffer-Herreshoff Collection Item HH.6.003. Calculations. Box HAFH.6.1B, Folder Hull Nos. 150p, 151p, 152p. No date (1888-01 ???).)
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"[Item Transcription:] Penciled sheet of paper titled 'Order for cylinders for st[eame]rs 150, 151, and 152 [#150p SAY WHEN, #151p BALLYMENA, and #152p CUSHING]'
To be cast of fine hard cast iron of best quality, and carefully moulded'." (Source: MIT Museum, Hart Nautical Collections, Haffenreffer-Herreshoff Collection Item HH.6.003. Memorandum. Box HAFH.6.1B, Folder Hull Nos. 150p, 151p, 152p. 1888-01-01.)
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"[Item Description:] Penciled 'Memorandum regarding 15in stroke quadruple Expansion Engine for Steamers Nos. 150, 151 and 152 [#150p SAY WHEN, #151p BALLYMENA, and #152p CUSHING]'." (Source: MIT Museum, Hart Nautical Collections, Haffenreffer-Herreshoff Collection Item HH.6.003. Memorandum. Box HAFH.6.1B, Folder Hull Nos. 150p, 151p, 152p. 1888-01-01.)
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"[Item Description:] Penciled technical drawing titled 'Blower Engine Bed. 4 and 7 x 4 [steam] engine. St[eame]r 150 [#150p SAY WHEN]. 1/2 size'. With note across entire drawing 'See new drawing with some changes'. Undated (compare with HMCo Plan HH.5.01685 (023-030) 'Bed for blower engine 4 x 7 x 4 with 15in stroke quadruple ex. engine Str. 150' dated March 18, 1888)." (Source: Herreshoff, N.G. (creator). Penciled Technical Drawing. Halsey C. Herreshoff Collection at the Herreshoff Marine Museum Item MRDE11_02340. Folder [no #]. No date (ca 1888-03-18).)
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"[Item Description:] Casting Book # 2 [B (there is another Casting Book # 2)] showing hull castings as per title only for steamers #148p Our Mary and #149p Jersey Lily. Contents, however, also include castings for other boats including #188903es Yawl Boat for #157p Aquila, #405s Alice, #406s Iris, #54p Dolphin, #65p Gleam, #104p Magnolia, #104p Magnolia, #133p Henrietta, #151p Ballymena, #152p Cushing, #155p Augusta [III], #156p Antoinette, #157p Aquila, #158p Launch for Seal Fishing, and #162p Judy. Also listed are many parts for a quadruple engine (probably for #152p Cushing or for #150p Say When or #151p Ballymena). While other casting lists record both castings made at home and at outside foundries, this book appears to list only castings made at outside foundries and none at home. A first part of the booklet from front to about the middle shows casting numbers, descriptions, numbers of castings and foundry where made with dates ranging from Sept 10, [1887] to Dec 14 [1889]. A second, upside down, part of the booklet begins at the end and then goes back to the middle showing for the same date range 'Patterns sent away' with pattern numbers and names of foundries these were sent to. A further section then shows castings required for #152p Cushing and as well as castings required for Lagging, Pumping Engines, Feed Pump and Air Pump, all these possibly also for #152p Cusing. A final section shows 'Patterns ordered home' with pattern numbers, foundry names these were received from and dates ranging from Sept 12 [1887] to Dec 16 [1889]." (Source: MIT Museum, Hart Nautical Collections, Haffenreffer-Herreshoff Collection Item HH.6.120-03. Castings Book 2B. Box HAFH.6.4B, Folder Casting Record Books Hull Castings Order Book 2. 1888-09-10 to 1889-12-14.)
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"[Item Transcription:] Handwritten (in ink and pencil) experiments and trials booklet titled 'Herreshoff Mfg. Co. Experiments 1884 to 1889. N.G. Herreshoff'. Relevant contents:
§34: #150p SAY WHEN Trial Runs 16.3, 16.5 & 17.4knots (1888-07-07 & 1888-07-16)
§35: #150p SAY WHEN Trial Runs Indicated power 601hp (1888-07-17 & 1888-07-20)." (Source: Herreshoff, N.G. (creator). Trials Booklet. Halsey C. Herreshoff Collection at the Herreshoff Marine Museum Item MRDE07_03520. Folder [no #]. 1884-05 to 1890-05.)
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"[Item Transcription:] [Penciled draft letter re William Gardner paper on 'The Steam Yacht as a Naval Auxiliary in time of War':] In reply to your request to critique the paper of Mr. W[illiam] Gardner of which you have forwarded me a copy. The subject is one which has come directly under the attention of our company as builders of both steam yachts and torpedo boats, and I am quite free to confess after trying to combine the two that the torpedo type for a yacht is not popular and I think will never be with yachtsmen. The reasons are 1st, that to obtain the very highest speed the vessel and machinery has to be very lightly but strongly built entailing about double the cost to construct. 2nd, in being so light the life is much shortened, and the expense of repairs and upkeep is much greater. 3rd, on account of the machinery being designed with a smaller coefficient of safety, there is always a much greater risk of breakdown and loss of life or injuries to the attendants [possibly a reference to the accident on #150p SAY WHEN].
The passage in one of these high speed boats is very exciting and exhilarating but to the owner or anyone responsible for the welfare of the crew, the exhilaration soon wears away, and the strain on the nerves together with the bodily fatigue from the constant vibration will soon disturb any real yachtsman with a steamer that approaches anywhere near a torpedo boat in speed. To get any kind of comfort in a high speed steam yacht, about 1/3 of a torpedo boat’s speed has to be sacrificed, and such a craft would be utterly useless to meet a true torpedo boat [in] actual war service.
The larger and faster of the seagoing yachts would without doubt be of service to the Navy in time of war for dispatch vessels and to patrol our coasts. And vessels of the size and power of the Valliant would be useful for all purposes except for a battleship. But there are not likely to be many yachts of that size built." (Source: Herreshoff, N.G. Letter to Capps, W.L. (SNAME). Halsey C. Herreshoff Collection at the Herreshoff Marine Museum Item MRDW02_00270. Folder [no #]. 1893-12-17.)
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Note: This list of archival documents contains in an unedited form any and all which mention #150p Say When even if just in a cursory way. Permission to digitize, transcribe and display is gratefully acknowledged.

• Say When (HMCo-made index card)
• Say When (MIT Museum-made index card)
• Note: The vessel index cards comprise two sets of a total of some 3200 cards about vessels built by HMCo, with dimensions and information regarding drawings, later or former vessel names, and owners. They were compiled from HMCo's early days until 1920 and added to in later decades, apparently by Hart Nautical curator William A. Baker and his successors. While HMCo seems to have used only one set of index cards, all sorted by name and, where no name was available, by number, later users at MIT apparently divided them into two sets of cards, one sorted by vessel name, the other by vessel number and greatly expanded the number of cards. Original HMCo cards are usually lined and almost always punched with a hole at bottom center while later cards usually have no hole, are unlined, and often carry substantially less information. All cards are held by the Francis Russell Hart Nautical Collections of the MIT Museum in Cambridge, Mass.

Name: Say When
Type: Steam
Length: 132'
Owner: Monroe, Norman L.

Source: Herreshoff Manufacturing Company. "A Partial List of Herreshoff Clients." In: Herreshoff Manufacturing Company. Herreshoff Yachts. Bristol, Rhode Island, ca. 1931.

• Say When
• Note: The L. Francis Herreshoff index cards comprise a set of some 1200 cards about vessels built by HMCo, with dimensions and / or ownership information. Apparently compiled in the early 1930s, for later HMCo-built boats like the Fishers Island 23s or the Northeast Harbor 30s are not included. Added to in later decades, apparently by L. F. Herreshoff as well as his long-time secretary Muriel Vaughn and others. Also 46 cards of L. F. Herreshoff-designed vessels. The original set of index cards is held by the Herreshoff Marine Museum and permission to display is gratefully acknowledged.

Name: Say When
Type: 138' steamer
Owner: Norman L. Munroe
Year: 1888
Row No.: 600

Source: Herreshoff, L. Francis. "Partial List of Herreshoff-Built Boats." In: Herreshoff, L. Francis. Capt. Nat Herreshoff. The Wizard of Bristol. New York, 1953, p. 325-343.

Year: 1888
E/P/S: P
No.: 150
Name: Say When
OA: 132'

Source: Vermilya, Peter and Maynard Bray. "Transcription of the HMCo. Construction Record." Unpublished database, ca. 2000.

Note: The transcription of the HMCo Construction Record by Peter Vermilya and Maynard Bray was performed independently (and earlier) than that by Claas van der Linde. A comparison of the two transcriptions can be particularly useful in those many cases where the handwriting in the Construction Record is difficult to decipher.

"Norman L Munro [1844 - February 24, 1894], the New York publisher who recently died, was at one time a resident of this town [Bristol]. Several years ago he had two steam yachts built by the Herreshoff Manufacturing Co., which bore the peculiar names of the 'Say When,' [#150p] and 'Now Then' [#142p]. [He had also been the owner of #133p Henrietta, #148p Our Mary, and #149p Jersey Lily]." (Source: Anon. "Local Affairs." Bristol Phoenix, March 3, 1894, p. 2.)

"[See also:] Order for cylinders for strs. # 150, 151, 152 (1/1/1888) - Calculations - Memo regarding 15" stroke quadruple expansion engine for strs. # 150, 151, 152 (1/1/1888). In: Technical and Business Records pertaining to the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company, Series VI, Folder HH.6.3 (Hull Nos. 150, 151, 152), Box HAFH.6.1B." (Source: Hasselbalch, Kurt and Frances Overcash and Angela Reddin: Guide to The Haffenreffer-Herreshoff Collection. Francis Russell Hart Nautical Collections, MIT Museum, Cambridge, Mass., 1997, p. 63-79.)

"Marine Engine of Open Type. 11 1/4 & 16 & 22 1/2 & 2x22.5 x 15, 430[rpm], 1050[hp]." (Source: Herreshoff, N. G. Handwritten List of HMCo-Made Steam Engines. Halsey C. Herreshoff Collection at the Herreshoff Marine Museum, MRDED1_00220. Undated, between 1903 and 1918.)

"In the absence of better available data displacement was estimated by using the figure for Gross Register Tons (87.14) from the 1890-91 Manning's American Yacht List (Net Register Tons were reported as 43.57) and converting to lbs by dividing through 2000 (short tons). Note that this figure can only be a rough estimate because register tons as reported in Yacht Registers correlate only loosely with actual displacement figures." (Source: van der Linde, Claas. March 17, 2015.)

Note: Research notes contain information about a vessel that is often random and unedited but has been deemed useful for future research.